What are we lacking in Z scale? Part II.

When this question was asked, I didn't even think about products. Clearly, Z-scale has an amaZing selection of products, substantially more than needed for a quality module, small, portable layout or diorama, even a large home layout. So obviously, my answer was, z-scale need more modelers and less loud mouths. Since I had the chance to read John Cubbin's article on his Ztrains web site ( www.ztrains.com/ ). The title of his article is "Caution: Z Scale Forums Ahead". Bingo. Another crucial element should be added to the scope: Constructive Criticism! I'm always stunned by many comments of members of this and other forums. "Great job", "amazing work", "masterpiece", etc... Then, the recepient of those nice comments think he and Z-scale generally is discriminated against world fame by the evil NMRA HO-sscale poisoned, biased, old world model railroaders. Do some comparisons, internet is great to help with the homework. There are thousands and thousands of great models, dioramas small and big layouts built by great modelers. Unfortunately very few of them are Z-scale. When I look the picture of a larger scale nice modeling work, always wonder: which key element of that project is not available, or doable in Z? I can find components only if I really want to use them as an excuse...

Lajos:huh:

Mr Lajos, I totally disagree with you. Just on top of my head without any research, I can name at least ten great layout.

1.Jim O'Connell's southern Division

2. Robert Ray''s Time saver module

3. Jim Drukenmilers refinery modules

4 Karin's Dizziland

5.Thom's trestle end module

6. Loren's module

7. Jeff's many modules

8. Joe S's door layout

9. Your modules

10. John Cubbin's dioramas.

I can list many more, but I don't remember their names.

Hi John, I might be wrong but... I think he means national recognition by the OTHER scale modelers ie: Model railroader, Scale Modeler Magazine, that sort of thing. The larger scales, for the most part, don't give us recognition because we don't write up articles about all of our **wonderful** and **beautiful** and extremely **well done** works of model railroading. There will always be the grumpy old men HO scalers but so many are just now starting to Z the light since NMRA's National Train Show this past summer. Its our own fault that we aren't better known outside our own forums. Lajos is a great friend, if you knew him you would better see the point I think he is trying to drive home. Thanks for the plug:laugh:
BTW, what did you do with all your Z points?!?!?!?!?
Karin

Honestly I can't see what Lajos is going after either.

I do understand we need more people in Z scale and that it has to come more in the open. And constructive critisism is a good thing as well.

But I don't get this:

I'm always stunned by many comments of members of this and other forums. "Great job", "amazing work", "masterpiece", etc... Then, the recepient of those nice comments think he and Z-scale generally is discriminated against world fame by the evil NMRA HO-sscale poisoned, biased, old world model railroaders. Do some comparisons, internet is great to help with the homework. There are thousands and thousands of great models, dioramas small and big layouts built by great modelers. Unfortunately very few of them are Z-scale.

I have spend some time on forums inhabited almost exclusively by rabid h0 "modellers" and it is there just the same. Regardless of the quality of the work it is either praised to high heaven or bored into the ground. It depends more on who made it than the result. So I don't see what John Cubbin is complaining about either. Forums seem to work that way.

Another ting I feel is different between Z and the larger scales is that Z scalers tend to be more train people than scenery people. If I look at what happens at h0 forums and what h0 presents on fairs then I only see dioramas were trains are included "because it is a train show". Very rarely there is a train running or are they building a layout to actually run trains, they only talk about what scenery they are going to put on it.

Honestly I can't see what Lajos is going after either.

Then, you've answered.

I do understand we need more people in Z scale...

So what do you do about that?

So I don't see what John Cubbin is complaining about either

Nice spin. Observation and complaining are two different animals.

Lajos:unsure:

alaska-rr wrote:

.....The larger scales, for the most part, don't give us recognition because we don't write up articles....
Karin

My thoughts on this would be, Yes and no, On my personal experience, I had wrote 3 letters to Model Railroader magazine, 2 letters was about articles ideas, I did not received any reply, one last letter was about excluding Quebec province on every contest they had, (it is in fine print in each contest they have, and even photo contests) and I did not get a reply either. I was so mad, that I cancel my subscription of the last 15 years.

I also wrote a full page to the Model Craftsman editor about some suggestions, never go any replies also. I'm still a members I just love this magazine. but it's sad to not be acknowledge at all.

But that being said, "THEY", the editors, the full time writers (the ones that are not always common people or readers, some of them are paid and are part of the magazines). they don't even propose someone or try to write something about us.

My opinion is that when someone is interested about the work you do, they get organize, and do what is necessary to start the process involve to have an article on you. The dedicated magazine about railroad models (the big ones) just don't do those initiatives, if they blames us about not writing articles, that's not a good reason, and it just show their lack of interest about our subjects.

When Epilog saw my work, they ask me to write something, and then the first brick was put in. Did the Railroad magazine asked, and I mean seriously asked anyone for an article and start the process with deadline or example of what they would need to make this idea flow? No? Then I’m sure it will always be HO and N in their magazine and rarely Z.

Another example here: when Rob had shown some interest in my work, and wanted to do an article in ZTrack mag, he had put the first step, and did what had to be done to make things advance , and I really had appreciate his interest.

So yes, I do blame the big mag’s for their lack of interest, they should at least do the first steps here, and show the way! I'm sure readers everywhere would be interested to see all the capability of the Z world. Maybe editors are being pushed by the bigger manufacturers to stay focus on HO and N!? I don't know, there is surely a reason, but us not writing enough about Z!??? I know they told this to Loren, and I believe they did, but please, they need to do the first steps!!!

Ben

The magazines are in business to make money from their advertisers. It would seen to me that since HO and N are the predominate advertisers, Z does not get any coverage.
I wonder if we would see articles on HO in ZTrack if Broadway Limited or Mikes Train House did a lot of ads. Not that they would.

If MRR and Craftsman truly supported the model RR hobby they would include Z,TT etc.

Just a thought,
Bob

Re Criticism. It was my job to do staff assessments when I was working. I was told to tell it as it was and leave room for improvement. The result was complaints and, in one case, a complaint to senior management. What people wanted was 'Performance consistently above acceptable' when, in fact, they did a good job but nothing to justify that.

Criticism should be constructive. Just saying 'great work', or 'marvellous', is really meaningless if it is said every time irrespective of the quality of the modelling. All it does is devalue those remarks and is of no help to the modeller. I would much rather have a 'how about doing this or that' than empty high praise.

Most of us are not expert modeller so, although there are some amazing model railways out there, most of our layouts will look OK rather that mind-blowing. And, of course, most of us know it. I know that I will never produce a model railway that will look like the real thing whether working in N or Z. I would rather be praised for my layout design than my scenery as I know that the latter will always disappoint me.

Just my tuppence worth.

Chris.

The magazines are in business to make money from their advertisers.

Yes,they make money on advertising, also the sales of the magazine and special publications. They have a template for each issue, ie pages designated for advertising and articles of various, mostly standard subjects. Most of the artcles are written by outside contributors, then edited by the magazine's own staff. It's very important, the articles, the attached photographs, plans and details must be professional quality, so they help with the sales of the publication.

It would seen to me that since HO and N are the predominate advertisers, Z does not get any coverage.

As we all know, Model Railroader published articles about -I would say- every significant Z-scale layouts. What makes a layout significant? Most importantly, focus on railroad and trains. Second, something unique, like the amazing dimensions of Rob Albritton's Gotthard Lines, the traveling layout of Jeffrey MacHan, or Lynn St. Laurent's free standing four seasons of California layout. There are many good home layouts in Z-scale, but they're not ready for publication, because of too many "funky" scenes and incomplete details. The only significant improvement of Z-scale are in the field of modules and a few portable (BYOZ) layouts featured in recent train shows. Actually Z-scale (Z-Bend Track) modules are driving circles around any other scale's modular displays, and it was appropriately recognized by the NMRA too. I think if we can organize a small team of volunteers to write (even a series of articles) about the significance and unique quality of Z-Bend Track modular displays (including BYOZ), taking nice pictures of the award winning and many other well made modules and small layouts, we can make it to the Model Railroader and other major publications.

Lajos:)

Nice spin. Observation and complaining are two different animals.

I'm afraid you lost me again.

There are many good home layouts in Z-scale, but they're not ready for publication, because of too many "funky" scenes and incomplete details.

Who is to be the judge of that? Over here in europe, the last train shows I saw, the praised layouts for me had a lot of inconsistent scenes. for me that is far worse than incomplete details. What often goes around here for a fantastic layout is one so crammed with detail that it loses all reality. I hope your side of the pond is different. (not that there is much besides h0 present)

It's very important, the articles, the attached photographs, plans and details must be professional quality, so they help with the sales of the publication.

Again, the reality in europe seems to be different. The last magazine I bought was full of scanned photo's (very old ones, begin 1900's) that were soo full of jpeg artefacts that I didn't even bothered to read it. The leading magazine here is full of photo's that are so dark and small you hardly see any detail. And it is still very popular.

So I think you're barking up the wrong tree. That leaves the following as the best explanation:

The magazines are in business to make money from their advertisers. It would seen to me that since HO and N are the predominate advertisers, Z does not get any coverage.

I'm trying to stay back out of this as I am a newbie and don't have a major layout, or go to the shows in US. This is just my view as a long time railroad magazine reader and dabbler in trains of EVERY scale.
I have seen some pretty lame layouts in the big magazines..but they were how-to beginners layouts that were pretty much ovals with a couple of switches on a piece of plywood. (Actually this is pretty much my US layout in Z, curse of coming from Midwest, flat fields but lots of trains.) Lame that they weren't these huge mega layouts but still a good learning tool and something that could be played with.
These beginning layouts are still fun and informative with the basics. I have seen them in N and HO in the magazines. The thing is, an average Joe could read the article, and go to a small hobby shop, pick up the tracks, trains, (maybe just a starter set) a couple of buildings and autos, a bit of trees and some other scenic material, and build a pretty decent little layout that he (or she) could set up and run with the kids.
It would be nice to see an article where this was done in Z. I don't understand the HO dudes saying they don't know enough about Z to do this. A boxcar is a boxcar. Too much of a challenge?
I think a big problem on the Z side is we don't have Plasticville type houses and cars and people for beginners. We have nice things in Z, but Average Joe is not going to drop 50 dollars for a pickup truck that's less than an inch long, when he could pick up a set of wagons in HO or N Z. And chances of him seeing these thing at the mall are 0.
We need cheaper and EASIER accessories in Z before others will try it. Something a bit
better that the solid Maerkln buildings (Don't knock them, I bet you all have used them on something) but somthing less challenging than the wood and brass kits.

Kelley, Layout size or length of membership should have nothing to do with posting on ZCS. If one is a member and has something to say, and can say it in a civil tone ZCS welcomes all postings. Cheers, Jim CCRR:)

Kelley wrote:

... These beginning layouts are still fun and informative with the basics. I have seen them in N and HO in the magazines. The thing is, an average Joe could read the article, and go to a small hobby shop, pick up the tracks, trains, (maybe just a starter set) a couple of buildings and autos, a bit of trees and some other scenic material, and build a pretty decent little layout that he (or she) could set up and run with the kids. It would be nice to see an article where this was done in Z.

I agree completely. I think there's a reason magazines like MR run the same type of beginner, 4' x 8', article so often. If someone thinking about getting into model railroading picks up one of these issues they won't be overwhelmed by a complex layout with amazing scenery and electronics. Instead they'll see a basic sheet of plywood and a track plan that they feel they can tackle and build upon.

It's with that idea in mind that Micro-Trains Line is sponsoring a new section over at Ztrains.com, titled "Z basics".
We'll be presenting very basic (see, clever naming device) track plans, ideas on how to build lightweight bases, areas of isolated track geometry, etc. We'll be using MTLs Micro-Track as this is an incredibly easy way to ease a new user into Z scale.

I'm really happy that MTL views this "beginner's approach" as an important aspect of growing Z scale. Nice to see a Z scale company make such a positive move towards the beginners.

John
www.ztrains.com

Thanks Kelley and John. Now, we're going somewhere, actually the right direction. What was the original question? What are we lacking in Z scale... And the first answer, modelers, not products. Simple plans, basics of modeling and helping hands (constructive criticism) can really improve the state of Z-scale. Beside simple layouts, basic Z-Bend Track modules are the area where seasoned Z-scalers can do the most. And many of us doing it for the while, but more bodies can bring in more newbies and convert other scalers. On our local train shows Bill Hoshiko has his own attraction. Micro-Trains sectional track layout on a simple foam board. He just cut into the foam, elevates part of the track to make the layout two level, hold the elevated track with something (most of the cases tootpicks), then run trains all weekend long. His motto is: "If I can do it, anyone can do it."

Lajos:)

Speaking of which, it is a pity Konrad has not put his Z layout that he made for the club on this site. It is one of these simpler pieces, but really cool! We certainly don't lack for Z modelers here in central PA, with the PSU model train club working on a couple layouts and my wife & I working on others.

All thanks to the good people at Ztrains and Ztrack for their sterling efforts to get this scale off the ground, and with all due respect, but they are largely preaching to the converted. What is needed is more exposure in the "mainstream" magazines. I won't go into that any further because other members have already.

Not so long ago Model Railroader had a feature article showing how they created a beginners layout over a weekend for $500. I've also heard about similar things being done at train shows. Is it possible that something like that could be done?

Kelley had a very good point about basic but good quality accessories and kits. I recently put together two Marklin kits and while they don't match the detail or maybe the scale realism of some others, they do a good job at representing stations, factories, houses or whatever. And that, I think, is all that the average modeller wants - for better or for worse or whether some people like it or not.

If you look around toy stores you will see more and more model airplanes, tanks, ect that are pre built and painted and weathered. In Europe there are pre-built models of buildings in HO and N. More people are buying ready built stuff because this generation in the computer age are wanting instant gratification. I am sure that the guys in the 50's who bought a model airplane kit that was a basic wood shape that had to be carved and sanded and painted were saying the same thing about the guys with plastic models, but there was a progression.
A lot of people now do not want to spend his time building and painting kits, let alone scratch build from styrene or wood. I think if a company can get trains and tracks made that is affordable, which is the case now, then maybe some basic accessories that would attract more beginners could also be made.
Maybe I am way older than any one here, but I remember the times we got the Monkey Ward's Christmas catalog and going right to the back and drooling over the cool HO sets and all the goodies that went with it. No we dont need the kitchy stuff like the working log dumper or the train that shoots rockets, but a few cows and a pen for the cattle car, a train station, (Marklin has kind of got it this time) or a couple of houses or the like?
There is a cycle, not much affordable accessories to attract average modelers and not enough modelers to justify making these things. Someone has to be brave and take a chance with the stuff. I am not a great modeler, but I get just as much fun if not more taking a cheap model and turning into somthing more realistic.

I really wonder how much Z $500 would buy at current retail prices. I see that as a much bigger problem for the scale than anything discussed here so far.

andyjbj wrote:

I really wonder how much Z $500 would buy at current retail prices. I see that as a much bigger problem for the scale than anything discussed here so far.

Actually, you can more today for that $500 than you could have 8 years ago. For instance, if you wanted a six axle US diesel in 2000, your only choice was AZL's C44 for $450.00. If you were looking at four axle locos, the MTL F7 was the bargain for roughly $85.00. Marklin's F7 were over $150.00. Today, MTL and AZL both offer locos between $150.00 - $175.00 at a much higher quality than we say 8 years ago. A 6 axle SD70 will run you $215.00. Yes, there has been price increases over the years for rolling stock, but not that much. The key is that in the last 8 years we have many more options and better quality as improved prices.

Let's face a fact folks. Z has never been inexpensive. It has always been on the high side of the scale Most of us realized that going in. I am more than okay for paying a bit more for good quality and highly detailed product. I feel one of Z scale's strength is it high degree of quality and detail. This is one area that I hope never waivers.

So what will $500 get you?

An MTL GP35 or GP9 starter set - $239.96 (track roadbed, loco, 4 cars, caboose)
Zthek 9 volt Snail controller - $28.00
AZL mixed pack of 4 high-cube box cars - $95.00
AZL SP signal tower - $25.00
A Ztrack Craftsman kit for a opera window center beam car with trucks - $23.50
Ztrack PSW flat plate girder bridge (brass) kit with abutments from Ztrains - $62.00
Two MCZ 53' container, pad printed - $17.90
MTL coupler height gauge - $7.28.

Total: $498.64.

Not bad for a locomotive, 9 cars, caboose, bridge, towers and accessories!

Rob

Hey Rob, Thanks for the input it is well thought out and looks good to me. Is the Challenger going to fit in this $500 window? Cheers, Jim CCRR:S